Thorner

And they did the same thing last season. The record is a reflection of their talent and construction: not a reflection a of coach not alchemically inspiring them to greater heights. I’m not saying a coach makes no difference I’m saying the margins aren’t close to what you are making them, when we see such an EXTREME issue consistently arise, that of slow starts, it’s a player issue. I’ll ask again, how could the players possibly not understand the need to start on time? What could a new coach possibly say that would make them go, “oh, I get it.” ? If they can’t grasp such an obvious fact it’s assuredly on the group It’s a group born into, baptized, and moulded by a narrative from on high that preaches patience and process and imo an aversion to real-time expectations and this bleeds into the very fabric of the construction of a roster asking a coach to go in and wave his wand and change the very nature of what Adams assembled is absurd

I guess when I think of “listening to a coach” I’m thinking of the, “hey that guy played for granato at the USNTDP 5 years ago go get him” shenanigans we’ve seen. You are probably right that a more vet coach would provide more valuable suggestions, but if that sort of philosophy was imputed by the GM we may still have the same problem. I’m ok with the coach having input but the aim needs to be to field a good team with an identity within its very construction that ANY competent coach could work with, rather than that input bring geared more towards familiarity to coach

Ya that’s what she said - - - I struggle to blame a coach, that’s my acknowledged bias. I agree the data suggests a firing should be objectively argued. But I haven’t gone soft. I’ve been incredibly consistent in my stance for, what, 5 years now? Surely that can be recognized. My line with Adams has always been there, I don’t move the goalposts. The theory suggested he’d be canned if we miss next year and that’s my line

Hey look I struggled with my point, too, when writing it. I’m not sure if it makes sense either haha. My aim is rarely to add sense to the discussion but rather to promote questioning of the entire enterprise, and all its facets. I think what I mean by “intangible” is the thing Granato is most criticized for is the team being unready to play, no? So, a lack of motivation. A person’s ability to “provide motivation” is a significantly more intangible thing to measure than, say, a player’s ability to score goals, no? Betting too much on this intangible variable is a very frivolous course to take imo. Rife with inherent risk. For one, motivation may not be the problem. And 2, again, if *23 guys* don’t have the proper motivation, if you are asking one guy to carry the slack for 23, you are already in massive trouble all teams occasionally need a fresh messsge. That’s where the “coaches are hired to be fired” thing comes from. But if your team CONSISTENTLY misses the message and the message is “game starts at 7”, it sort of imo defies logic to blame the coach. How stupid would the players have to be to not realize the importance of starting on time. If they are incapable of leaning it, it’s a player issue. But they aren’t incapable. Can’t we just employ a bit of Occam’s razor here? It’s a team full of kids and that’s the likely reason for the lack of focus. The lack of expectations from the GM only feeds this It’s ultimately on the players. But the players don’t roster themselves: there’s someone responsible for the collection

I see what you’re saying but if we have too many Owen Powers the issue is the other weaker/redundant Owen Power on the team not the actual OP. OP isn’t the guy we’d shift away from

All having the top ranked prospect pool guarantees you, if you don’t build a team, if you don’t use it as a means to an end, is future years with the highest ranked prospect pool. As we have seen. A good prospect pool yields a good prospect pool more often than a good team

Because it takes forever to make up ground building purely through prospects because A) we have such a talent gap to make up b) it takes prospects a long time c) teams get a FREE 7 PICKS EVERY YEAR. Even the *good ones*. In the painstakingly long time we take to make a small bit of progress, there’s more than enough time for teams to address their much smaller holes through the draft picks they’ve been granted. Their draft capital is “weaker” but it’s relative: they don’t have the holes to fill on the main roster we do. You can’t make up ground purely through youth before disenfranchisement sets in. You HAVE to be fluid in a team building approach. It’s shocking this gets any pushback at all but the name of the game is variety. A GM need to be agile and adaptable and combine many different avenues for team building into a competent whole its always about balance

No, he didn’t. And for the 50 billionth time: *BOTTERILL* traded more picks and prospects away Nothing a GM does sets a team back “5 years”. The turnover to competitiveness in a league half the teams make the playoffs is *demonstrably* shorter for all but the significant outliers

Adams has done enough positive things to make me think there’s a *chance* he might LEARN to be capable, after failing thus far, thus I’d prefer to give him one more year Also, the thread title got my hopes up damn you

I disagree. They should hire a coach tailored to the roster, not tailor a roster to a coach I don’t need the new coach to be Belichick, I don’t need the GM to be compelled to weigh the coach’s evaluation equally against his own. I want the GM to set the roster he wants and employ the coach that fits the roster HE assembled

Sounds reasonable

In our wanderings through the desert one of the most disheartening things is the shift over time, probably out of being utterly flabbergasted, to blaming the intangible. It’s not a logical pursuit. The more we alleviate blame from the tangible, talent based output of 23 players and their sum total in favour of ONE solitary variable and individual, who we are asking to contribute something we’d even struggle to define (make these 23 men care), the more we’ll find ourselves in circles The issue isn’t the 1, it’s the 23. It’s not even arguably close The 23 have far more of an effect on the result If you are counting on 1 to buoy the 23, you’ve ALREADY LOST

They’ll “work” on it by aging. It’s a symptom of a young team. If the aim isn’t achieving success in the now we’ll just have to wait. Buffalo didn’t just randomly draft a bunch of players with motivation issues coincidentally

Overall collection of talent Or even outright aptitude “Sabres are of course adequately talented” isn’t the free space people think it is roster construction is significantly lacking, it’s the operative reason for the record being what it is and you are what your record is. (The culture manifests itself in the construction of said roster but it doesn’t NEED to) Power just isn’t part of the issue

Very salient

Any feeling like that from me (and I can’t say it’s been infrequent of late) is personnel based. From players to management to owners. The crest endures. As a fan that’s our life preserver

That’s a good way to phrase it

I dunno how valuable the stat is but judging from the company he’s in…that’s at the very least correlation I’m signing up for

Playoffs died for me when we were a few points back and Tuch gave an interview touting that exact fact. Knew it was dead then

Granato gets it from Adams Yup

They weren’t in a playoff spot the entire second half of last year and it was never close to mathematically likely. We had a crazy stretch to keep it merely within range during the last 10 games but that’s the CLOSEST we’ve come and it required an unsustainable stretch. “this team has been reasonably close” misses the mark for me. I do agree things can change fast. We could make the playoffs next year. That’s always the most frustrating thing, in fact: making the playoffs isn’t hard. We could absolutely do it if they chose to prioritize the now

Exceptional stuff. One of the best posts I’ve ever read on this board. - - - Exactly. A key, key factor of why we are never good is we have, being unable to measure ourselves versus the rest of the league at large, resorted to relative comparisons to our own franchise: which gets you into trouble when your franchise is the worst in pro sports. “If we run it back and just get a little lucky and everything goes to plan, that “good” Buffalo output can be had!” But like you said: that total we are aspiring for, in this case “second half play” is hardly good enough and because we’ve set the goal so incredibly low, falling short even a little results in what we seem to always see: finishes in the 20s

Great stat. And definitively why “patience” need not apply. The idea merely making the playoffs requires some gargantuan process is the largest bill of goods this franchise and regime has sold