Thwomp!

Agitating stats too? No. That's my whole point. It's not just scoring and size with Lemieux. It's just scoring and size with Bailey and Baptiste. There's an attitude component that's missing. I want the Sabres to have their version of a Marchand/Gallagher/Burrows. We don't have that currently or in the pipeline anymore. I think Lemieux could fill that role well for some team in the NHL someday.

First bold: It's already worked out for Winnipeg. And they still have plenty of futures from the trade to sit back and develop or use as assets in trades. It may work out for the Sabres, but that is far from certain. Maybe 50-50 at best. Second bold: Yep, that's the story on Kane. Heard it before the trade and have been hearing it ever since. Not promising in my view so far. All I was arguing was the "dime a dozen", not a good prospect arguments people are throwing out there. Not the case in my view. Bailey and Baptiste may be scorers, but they're not agitators. Calling them scorers is even a stretch at this point considering their poor AHL numbers so far. Neither are the potential complete package that Lemieux could be imo. GMTM may keep him for a long time. It was a big trade for him and he's not going to want to admit failure until the evidence is overwhelming. To the bold: The old and stale core is performing much better. He's got a ways to go to be included in my group of the "new and improved core". Love how the bolded is fact based on one tweet. Murray has never hinted at or indicated anything of the kind.

Wow. Much to catch up on here. Yes, if I could go back in time I would undo the trade. Not knowing what else was out there of course, but since this trade has been horrible (imo) from the Sabres perspective I think we could have done better for what we gave up. I would have been happy to keep Armia, Lemieux, and the draft pick as well. What position does Armia play? RW? Where is a major hole in the Sabres right now? RW? I would have liked to see him grow with the other young guys we have a bit and see what happens. Why not? It's a lost season anyway. I'd rather see young guys develop than see veterans struggle and underperform. Wow, Liger. Thanks for the bio on Nylander, especially since there's a 99% chance he's never a Sabre. I wasn't saying Lemieux was a better prospect. I was saying as a snapshot in time and making a comparison to a top-10 or top-5 pick that Lemieux is currently scoring at the same rate in the same league. Nothing more. It was a comparison, not a would you rather. I'm sure I could have found better comparisons with all the other variables in play, but I'm not taking the time to do that. Nylander's name stuck out at me. And I'm glad so many around here don't care about the trade or how bad it's looking, but we should care. We likely could have done much better with what we gave up. Of the 5 big guys (not counting Legwand) that Murray has given up a bunch of assets for, 2 have been great (same trade) and the other 3 have been disappointing for varied reasons.

18 vs 19? Very little difference there. Lemieux's ppg the same and brings "tough to play against" which Nylander doesn't bring. Yes Nylander is more skilled but I'm talking about the skilled agitator role that we don't currently have in the pipeline. Last I'm saying on the whole subject because I'm obviously fighting an uphill battle: this trade was bad to begin with and it's looking worse, not better so far over time. I know it's a sin to question GMTM around here, but based on current evidence he got fleeced on this one. Better at scoring? How about better at size, physicality, and scoring all together? Scoring is not the only factor here, even though that's not very far off either.

That's what I'm saying. They "all do to some extent". Where's the complete package? Lemieux's 1.5 ppg average is essentially what Alexander Nylander averages in the OHL and everyone's drooling over him. Also doesn't sound like a 4th liner to me, but to each their own I guess.

I think the end of the season will be a good benchmark for sure. They've both played enough in the first half where they should be showing improved play, but it isn't happening yet. I want to eat my hat on this one, but I don't think I'm going to have to. What I'm afraid of based on evidence so far: The Jets found an easy mark and offloaded their baggage on said mark and were amazed that the mark kept adding more and more to the deal.

Does this Jones guy have the size, stats, and sandpaper that Lemieux has? If so, sign me up because those guys don't grow on trees. Where's our guy on the team or the pipeline that plays that role? I listed the reasons why I like Lemieux and didn't say "because of the name" once. You're apparently the one stuck on name.

23 year old, LHD, chosen #13 overall in 2010. I'd take a flyer on him. Why not? Hasn't had much success in the NHL, but hasn't even played 60 pro games yet.

Meh, the physical part has been the best part of his game, but that's not saying much. I agree with Freeman, that Armia is just another guy. Lemieux, however, has the potential to be a Marchand/Gallagher/Burrows type that everyone needs. That's his character. The guy you want on your team, but don't want to play against. The Sabres could still use one of those guys, which is why I was sad to see him go in the trade. Only time will tell on both of them, though.

You're parsing a bit too much here. Unmet hopes=Sabres overpaying. They paid for what they expected/hoped for from Kane/Bogo. I think as an all around player, that Lemieux's ceiling is much higher than Armia's.

Kane's on pace for 19-12-31 even in he plays in all 42 remaining games :sick: Bogo is 3-11-14 if he plays in all 42 remaining games :sick: With the hype and what we gave up to get them, I'm pretty disappointed thus far, especially when these two were supposed to be difference makers, and pieces in the future picture, not just average players. And they've both had injury problems so even the possibility of 42 games played is a stretch and their stats could very well be lower because of that.

Gonna be a busy February for me television wise. In addition to the normal shows I watch coming back, there are several others that don't/haven't had the normal schedules slated for January/February that I will watch: X-Files (1/25): Giving it a try. As a big fan of the original I hope this doesn't suck. Better Call Saul (2/15): I just finished watching the 1st season, and the 2nd season is set up to be awesome. Loved the 1st season. American Dad: (1/25): Loved the show when it was on FOX. TBS picked it up and they are finally airing new episodes. The Walking Dead (2/14): Enough has been said around here about this show. Vikings (2/18): Season 4 coming up. If you haven't watched this you are missing out. If I had to choose one current show as the only show I watch, this would be it. Previous seasons are available for streaming last I knew. 11/22/63 (2/15): Hulu original starring James Franco and Chris Cooper, based on the Stephen King novel. Stephen King is an executive producer and J.J. Abrams is a Producer. Great book centered around the Kennedy assassination. Won't give out too much information on the story, but with the people involved it looks like it could be a very good tv show as well. It's actually kind of daunting, but there are so many quality shows on television now, and I don't even have cable, so I'm sure I'm missing out on some others.

Somewhere GoDD is gloating a bit.

He is??? Or do you mean off the ice? :ph34r:

Exactly and Kane and Bogo were supposed to speed up the rebuild and fill two important top roles for the Sabres going forward. Through the first post-tank half season, the results have been disappointing. These guys are veterans that should be playing better, whether the results, team and/or personal, are there or not. The problem is that we need Kane and Bogo to be difference makers and what we gave up to get them indicates that management thought they would be too.

I had forgotten about that. Taught himself how to throw left handed after breaking his right arm twice as a boy. He was also only 5'10" and 180 lbs, but regularly threw 100 mph. Also just saw that he still holds the record for strikeouts per 9 innings in a single season, with 14.4 in 1997. He has some crazy video game stats.

My tragedy is Billy Wagner. The guy should have gotten more support easily. He got 10.5% of the vote in his first year. 422 Saves (5th all time) 2.31 ERA in 903 innings (2nd only to Rivera's 2.21) 11.92 SO per 9 innings (best since 1900 by a large margin) .998 WHIP (best all time, and beats Rivera's 1.000) 5.99 Hits/per 9 innings and 0.187 opponents batting average (both lowest in live ball era) The only downside is his 903 innings. No pitcher has made the HOF with less than 1000 IP. But damn, he is the best in several categories and should have gotten way more consideration this year.

Exactly what I was saying. Risto is going to have to have a monster season to overcome those factors and make the All-Star team as it's currently formatted. Throw in the "name" factor because the other 3 are so well-known and popular around the league and it gets even tougher for him.

I disagree with both of the bolded. Lemieux seems like he could've been the future replacement for the "Concept of Zemgus" if Zemgus continues to under perform. He is 6'1" 209 lbs and adds alot of sandpaper as we all know. He scores as well as agitates. 2014 in OHL: 57 games 41-19-60. So far in 2015: 19 games 20-9-29. Guys that can score, agitate, and have his size are not "dime a dozen". The asset I hated to lose most was Lemieux in this trade. I'd be much happier if we could have kept him since he seems like a "Murray type of guy". Kane has also not shown much, if any, of the physical aspect that he was purported to have either. The O'Reilly trade and the Kane/Bogo trade are completely separate. Just because the O'Reilly trade has been a good one, it does not make this trade any better or more likely to happen. I think the O'Reilly trade looked better from the beginning while this one has not looked so good from the start. Bogo has not been good this year and has taken a few steps back from what we saw from him last year.

SI cover from 1994:

Congrats to Griffey and Piazza. I just realized (again) that I'm getting old. Seems like yesterday that I was a teenager and watching those guys play.

Ok, poor wording on my part. The trade seemed like a lot to give up at the time and the current circumstances are not helping it be viewed more favorably. I'm open to changing my mind on it, but again, based on current circumstances, my view of the trade is mostly negative except for the helping the tank aspect. I just have a negative view of the trade at this point in time, leading me to make that statement. It was intended to be a more qualitative statement than quantitative, in other words.

I'm not saying either of those things. I'm saying that my first impression was that it was a lot to give up, probably too much. Given current conditions, the trade is not aging well from the Sabres perspective either, which was what I told myself would happen so that it seemed more palatable at the time. Overall, the package we gave up is obviously what it took to get it done. A market trade. Unfortunately Murray may have his thumb on the scale a bit when it's a player(s) he really wants. Also, I'm hoping Kane and Bogo improve because my impression is that Murray would be hard-pressed to part with either of them very easily since they're "his" guys and he brought them in.

Well just looking at who we got and how they've performed the short term has not been promising, leading me to be less optimistic about the long term prospects. At this point, Kasdorf may be the best long term prospect we got in the trade :ph34r:

I would still make the trade, although I'll likely always think we gave up an asset too much to make it happen. It's a weird trade because there is the outside factor of the tank resulting in Eichel, which this trade helped accomplish. I'd like Kane and Bogo to come around, but that hope is fading a bit.