WildCard

What moron made that failed dump in

I really can't :lol:

Casey looks better than most of our forwards and he's 19

Wanted Mantha a long time ago.

'The Jets have drafted well and let their young playerse develop' Yup, sounds just like Buffalo

Welcome to purgatory, Casey

God Nolan is awful

Ah Casey, that's your dude

Nice start Casey. Man is he fast

Let's go

Probably, but it's been fun. I think at this point everyone is so entrenched in their side from literally years of arguing this that nobody is going to budge. Still, one of the better conversations I've had on here in a year or so That being said, I'm done with it :lol:

So those teams were just really really bad and it allowed them to get elite level talent. The only difference being they were bad on accident and we were bad on purpose. Not sure how being bad through incompetence is any better than at least formulating a plan to reap the benefits you've seen gifted to someone else through that incompetence.

I have a hard time believing that if they were that bad to get those 3 for that long, that their roster was any less worse than the scorched earth one we did for a tank

McDavid has proven he can carry his team in the playoffs. Pretty sure Kessel never did that No, you don't need to tank to land a player that was drafted high. Again though, I never said that. What I've been saying for two pages is that tanking gives you the best opportunity to do so; either be having the assets to trade for one, or by directly selecting them yourself Do I think it was hugely lucky the Penguins made a conscience effort to get to the top of the draft and selected good players? No, I don't. I'm not going to compare the 3rd/4th greatest European player ever and possibly the best player ever to Reinhart and Eichel, no. I will compare them to Toews and Kane however

Phil Kessel couldn't carry his own team, we've already seen this in Toronto. Pk Subban can't carry his own team, we've seen this in Montreal. Seguin probably can carry his own team; he was also the #2 overall pick I know they didn't tank to get him. They got lucky one year, like you said, to draft high enough to select him. Tanking, or at least at the time we did it, takes that luck away. Miraculous? Those players you listed were top picks. Nashville is a team built on miracles with late round picks that actually hit. Detroit built a dynasty of miracles

Seth Jones

They were both key parts of a SC run. Good elite players pop loose regularly? Since when? Outside of Boston/Chiarelli routinely trading away a top 2 pick, when do franchise players leave the team that drafted them? Karlsson? Rick Nash?

Good point. And They got Johansen with the 3rd overall pick, Seth Jones

Joe Thornton was drafted 1st overall Marleau was drafted 2nd overall Nashville hit consistently on later round picks; Arvidsson, Weber, Josi, etc. If you have a GM/AGM combo that has been together for decades and can pull that off, congrats. Or, if you have a GM in Washington willing to trade away a perennial 30g scorer, or one in Boston willing to trade away a Thronton, good for you. Those trades are out of your control, tanking isn't. But they fleeced a dumb GM. Usually those trade will cost you capital in return. It's not as if the tank doesn't give you plenty of ammo to trade. We just made the wrong trades

The Sharks were/are loaded with top end talent that was drafted high You really wanna pick the Predators? They're an anomaly. One that, funny enough, just lost in the SC Final to a team that tanked; a team that has made the Finals 4 times, in fact beating the two example teams you just listed in SJ and Nashville. Tell me how the Predators got so good Edit: If that comes off a little aggressive, sorry about that.

Nice intro Brawndo, well done. Might actually watch this one tonight. Thankfully the Yankees game should be over by then

You believe RoR is a first line center?

I don't believe for a second that acquiring depth takes years and years and years to do. It may take that long because teams make bad moves, sure, but it is not just something that is just a given. I understand it is very, very hard to build depth, that only makes tanking all the more attractive to me. Where did your Winnipeg, and Nashville, depth come from? From hitting on draft picks. You say creating depth takes so long because it's difficult and the chances at hitting on players is low. Well then it seems like the best way to shorten the time frame is by getting yourself the best chances and the most chances at successfully "guessing right". Being a GM is hard. Why wouldn't I give a GM all of the possible ammo we can in order to make those decisions easier, and to make them more frequent? Exactly. Do just what Botterill is doing, and what made Pittsburgh Pittsburgh. Create a farm system, don't rush the kids, let them play and win together in the minors, and draft well. We complained about Darcy doing the same thing with Grigorenko as well. The only time he was successful at a rebuild, he built a team in Rochester and let them mature/win together

What contracts have possibly handcuffed us from making any moves we needed to make? We've had ample cap space to go after and UFA we want to create depth and a winning dynamic, both in the AHL and NHL. We've also had more than enough cap space to retain any player we want. You're saying that by scorching the roster so much we depleted all of our depth at every level, which in turn made us get terrible players we were stuck with that fostered a culture of losing. I don't see how drafting well and keeping good talent in Rochester while the NHL team tanks isn't a viable solution to this problem of culture. I don't believe that teams that do a traditional rebuild and have never won anything have some sort of magic winning culture and attitude as a result of not tanking; the fact is you don't get that attitude/culture without winning, and winning is easier with more talent. If you want to develop that mantra, or if you want to cultivate depth, do it the same way every team in a sport with a farm system does it: draft well and keep those players together in minor leagues to win together. That entire first line, good goalie, and defence were leaving no matter what. I disagree. If you don't separate them then there's no difference between a tank and a rebuild

I can see that stance, and I would agree it's a valid one. Maybe if DR isn't terrible at his job we don't tank. Or maybe we fire him earlier and get a GM that also doesn't tank. Those are valid routes. I also don't believe they make tanking any less valid But Nolan isn't the tanks fault