Weave

Darcy was a good GM that usually worked under lousy conditions. We didn't appreciate it at the time, but we should now.

Dudacek gets my vote. He's the Sam Reinhart of posters. Always here. Always insightful. Always reasonable. Always respectful.

True story. Botteril gave away more picks than GMTM. We did the math a long time ago.

This is what happens when you burn the fields.

We still suck all these years after the tank becuase we never had enough NHLers to field a full roster, not beause we picked up a handful of veterans. The best team we've iced since the fateful decision to burn the house down was the season we had all those vets.

It's a roster of mediocrity. After Jack and Sam it's like ranking warm tap water from 15 different suburbs.

Very well put. Better than I would have worded it, for sure.

Man, I get 3 players into a list and start yawning.

I think you are talking past Curt. He's not suggesting mgt wants Jack gone. He's suggesting that if Jack wants out Jack will be accommodated because there are all kinds of negatives that go with a franchise player that doesn't want to be in the franchise.

I think we absolutely need a center coming back if Jack is moved, so it's probably either/or for the two kids, plus something else.

Yeah, you and I are nowhere near agreement. The last 21 games have not been rainbows and sunshine. At least not compared to a playoff standard. And we are obviously evaluating what we see differently. This team has most definitely NOT solid for 21 games. We've taken advantage of teams taking us lightly a few times, and genuinely played well a few times. The rest has been merely competent and outgunned.

He absolutely does have leverage. the team will want to avoid a fractured locker room and disenfranchised franchise player in the worst way. That is his leverage. Is it enough leverage to swing a trade? Certainly possible. The team goes as Jack goes. If Jack isn't committed the team goes nowhere anyway, and that is a pretty significant incentive. Whether or not the issue is solely in the minds of the pundits and fans is another matter entirely, and we have no way of knowing either way.

Does the conversation even develop further with Zibinejad plus Kakko or LaFreniere as a base? There would probably have to be other moving parts on both sides. Seems like the basic structure could be a win/win for both teams. We'd probably have to add a young gun to replacce the young gun they lose. They'd have to make up the difference elsewhere to reflect the difference between Jack and Z. Zibinjad, Sam, Cozens is a pretty good C spine. If Mitts doesn't get moved as part of the deal, that is actual depth.

I can get on board with moving VO over Mitts. I think VO is done developing. WYSIWYG now. He's a powerplay specialist. Mitts still has room to grow and has a 2C ceiling still. On the other hand, Mitts value right now is probably higher so we likely would get a better return for him. For the right guy I'd move either.

First off, I disagree with your description of their play to begin with. Mitts was not playing "extremely well" as a 2C. He was demonstrating basic competence as an NHL center. Nothing more. He's always had a nice shot. Basic competence, a nice shot, and a role one level up from where he should be and he's got numbers that send GA all gaga. Sam played about how I expected, admittedly he put up more goals than I expected, but his overall play was not some great leap for him. The goals came because he was featured in Jack's absence, not because his heart grew 3 sizes that day. Patrick Sharp. I've said it all along, and he continues to show that is the comparable. Sharp stepped up and did that too when Toews was out with injury. Bryson? He might be earning a full time position next season, but we'lll agree to disagree on the characteriziation that he was playing solid top 4 D. I think you've forgotten what solid D looks like in a Sabres sweater. He's got promise. He's demonstrating that his skill level is NHL caliber. Let's not overstate the rest. Asplund might become a 3rd liner on a good team. I'm not sure he's a 3rd liner on a good team yet. Again, he's demonstrated an NHL skill level. Playing well is relative to the circus we've watcched for 10 seasons, not relative to the playoff teams in the league. I was wrong about Thompson. I don't think he is ever going to show consistency in his game necessary to depend on him. He's Taylor Pyatt all over again. The last 10 games of the season were watchable because we saw 4 lines that had basic level competence and guys who wanted to be here. They scored some goals and got scored against alot. They still got caved in fairly frequently. They took a few teams by surprise. Jack's return would certainly move each of those forwards down a level in the lineup. But unless those kids are augmented with a couple of good vets from good teams that know how to change their game when things tighten up we're still looking at the Sabres playing Spring golf next season. If its me running the show, my offseason includes moving Asplund, Thompson, and depending on whether we can get a 2C another way (I still think Sam is most valuable paired with Jack but concede if we can't get a 2C he might be our best option. Not ideal), Mitts or Olofsson for 2 playoff tested mid career players that can add some character and snarl to the 2nd line. Bjork and Cozens can grow together on the 3rd line, and hopefully we can find a way to keep Eakin and Reider in the press box. It's not that I am low on these players. We seem to have sufficient NHL level talent for the first time in a very long time. But this mix isn't right and we need to get the mix right. Too many kids. Too many finesse players. Good teams recognize surplus and move the surplus to bolster areas of weakness. We now have a bunch of kids that have shown they have NHL abilities. Let's take advantage of that and move a couple of them to fill the holes that aren't going to be filled by internal candidates. For those crying that playoff teams are built with homegrown talent my response is, Jack, Sam, one of Mitts or Olofosson, Cozens, Dahlin, Risto, Bryson, Borgen, Arrtu, Samuelsson, Zemgus still remain. That's a pretty ***** home grown group. 11 out of 16 game day skaters. Moving a few guys to adjust the makeup of the team is normal. Hording them like a depression era grandmother hordes tupperware containers is not.

Their kids all had strong veteran presence as the grew. There is the difference. We don’t have that.

Ryan O’Reilly says hi.

Girgensons is a recent example, but by no means the only. How far back do we want to go? Plante and Dawe? I’m not gonna spend my Friday night listing the kids this team has featured and then disappointed. I agree that you don’t build a cup winner through free agency but when you look around the league at the top teams all of their home grown talent was groomed with good vets supporting them. We don’t have the hood supporting vets. We jettisoned the good base we had to implement the tank and we never did build up a base of good vets to replace them. So our kids are not in the same environment as the kids in TB, or Bos, or Col, or Tor. It’s been a full athlete’s generation since this team has had a good base for its young kids to build upon.

They traded the better player to get Peca, too. Mogilny, a bonafide superstar for a borderline 1C. You don't need to get an equal player back if you get the right player and can fill a hole as well. Jack goes out, a lesser C and something else (say a 1RW) comes back. Both teams win the trade.

LOL I've got other hobbies. I waste time on this forum, but I haven't wasted much of it on the team itself in too long. I've got better use for my entertainment time budget. Thanks, Terry!

*sigh*

It most certainly doesn't need to be a trade for futures. And in a salary cap world I'm not sure it even can be a trade for futures. The other team is going to have to move parts to make room for Jack's salary. Jack, one of our non-Sam top six wingers, and a bottom pair D man for another teams 1C, 1W, and a goalie. Add fillers as needed.

What we saw with the kids after RK is what you typically see when people are put into featured roles that don't really belong there. This isn't sustainable, and can't be counted on to continue. We've seen this over and over and over on the Sabres every time they go through an era of mediocrity. Heck, Zemgus is an example of it. Feature him in a role over his head and he doubles his point totals. Same thing happening with the kids here. We're forced to feature them, they put up respectable points, and some folks see this as a sign that we have what we need already. We don't. It's not sustainable. It never was. The kids need support and they need roles that fit the slots they are currently fitting.

Everyone needs a setup man.