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I don't have any facts. I mentioned that in my OP. Does anybody have any facts that Roy was a cancer in the locker room? Or does everybody just go on some rumor that a certain player on the team said he's bad in the locker room? The fact that everybody kisses Miller's ass should be proof enough that they're afraid to do or say anything bad. If I were in the locker room and he called me out in a post game interview, I'd have a little talk with him. If he's going to call me out, I'm going to make sure he'd better be ready for me to call him out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Semin is notorious for only negotiating one year contracts. He doesn't prefer anything longer than that.

I don't think he's that bad, I just don't think he's that great. Doesn't seem to have any real impact on GIonta and St. Louis. What kind of facts do you want? Will post game interviews count because you can listen to the majority of them and get the facts there. If you think I should be providing actual in-depth coverage from within the locker room...... sorry I can't do that. And I did mention that we don't know what goes on in the locker room. I don't want to run him out of town because I think he sucks. I want to use him as trade bait because he could bring in a big name forward. Anaheim won with an average goaltender, Chicago won with an average goaltender, Pittsburgh and Detroit both won with average goaltenders. In fact if you take all of the finalists since the lockout, the majority of those teams got there with average goaltenders. I base it on the fact that when Miller gets into a funk, he stays there for long periods at a time. Then the fans or the team will find some way to place the blame elsewhere. Or........ they'll play Enroth while the team is injured and the Miller fans will say how much Enroth sucks and he can't handle a 60 game schedule. Thank you.

OK............. 2 things: 1) I never implied that Miller wasn't outspoken. I love the fact that he is. I wish more pro athletes spoke up when the rest of their team sucks. Although, it does very little to support his attitude when he cannot accept the same in return. 2) I never implied Quick wasn't a key player in the Kings run. If it wasn't for him they never would have made the playoffs. But, the entire lineup stepped it up for the playoffs big time and I think (IMO) they would have won the Cup without Quick. They were that good.

I didn't say they didn't win the Cup because of Quick, I said they got to the playoffs because of Quick. They disposed of every single opponent so 'quick'ly that they could have done so with an above average goalie. Broduer showed that an 'average' goaltender can get that far without a supporting team. He is far beyond his peak but still got there because he is a tremendous athlete and has the mindset to do so. Comparing Quick to Hasek is like comparing Mogilny to Gretzky. Hasek is without a doubt a freak of nature. There is no way ANYBODY in this day and age can withstand that kind of flexibility as he ages. Maybe I'm wrong. He was without a doubt a superior goaltender. But, I want to see more than a couple of years out of him to compare him to Hasek. NO long term contracted goaltenders have turned out to be withstanding. I give Quick credit, he has the mindset, he has the balls and he is cocky beyond belief. I hope the best for him. But, it hasn't bode well throughout history for long term goalies.

Did the Kings have the lineup during the regular season that the Sabres did had they stayed healthy? Yes, Quick may have carried them to a playoff birth, but the way the entire lineup played I think they would have won regardless. Yes, I agree, they made the playoffs because of Quick, but I want to see him be more than a one hit wonder. People say Enroth isn't made to play 60 games, that we don't know. But Quick had a standout year. Can he continue to play like that? His style leans towards 'no'. There is no way his style can play up to those standards into his 30's. There is a reason Broduer is as good as he is. He may not be as quick as he once was, but he has the technicalities down. He doesn't have to be as acrobatic as Quick to get the job done. Much like Miller. But Broduer has the mindset to get it done....... Miller, not so sure.

Heart and determination often trumps skill and stats. To a point obviously.....................

Yes, I did notice that. Gerbe went balls to the wall even when they hit rock bottom. I don't care how bad or good you are, at his $$ that right there is worth keeping. He is always doing whatever it takes.

Let's get one thing straight. I LOVE the fact these guys are brutally honest. They are grown men, professional athletes making millions of dollars a year. They should be brutally honest. At this level each player should be able to take constructive criticism and hand it out at the same time AND accept it. But, when was the last time you hears any of the team criticize Miller for flat out blowing a game? NEVER. They are afraid to call out the Golden Boy. I've been a pretty good follower of the Panthers for many years and NEVER have I heard a goalie talk about his team the way Miller does. Is it that tough for Miller to say 'It's not my job to critique my team, it's my job to stop pucks....."? How do you know that? 30 posts in 45 minutes, I hardly call it dead. :flirt: I'm on vacation, why you guys taking up all my time? :P

1. Good. ;) 2. Of course he is, when he carries the team everybody is happy. But when things get sour, they go REALLY south. 3. Despite how he lets in goals, he still has better stats.

I didn't say he was average because he goes hot and cold. Every single player in the league goes hot and cold. In fact I have said the one strength of Miller is when he gets into a streak he does it for extended periods, not game to game like Luongo. But overall he is average. When he is bad, he's really bad for along time. He loves to use excuses to back it up until he gets hot again. Good and bad years.............. he's had one good year.

If you were in the locker room after a loss and knew your #1 goalie routinely bashed his teammates on the air........ would you be leery? Would you be scared to say something about his performance? Would you be afraid to even think of saying anything because you knew your coach and GM considers that guy to be the Golden Boy?

1) No, Miller is the golden boy to the organization because he won a Vezina and an MVP in the Olympics. Aside from that his stats are barely average. 2) Read my last post. 3) Tell me, do you think it was coincidence that Miller all of a sudden started his hot streak on the west coast where his wife lives right after Pegula said his daughter would be better in net?

Of course they did, because they bend over backwards for him just like the front office does. My point is, the way Enroth has played, would the benefit of getting a TRUE #1 center by using Miller as trade bait offset using Enroth as #1?

I agree with you. The front office is so obsessed with Miller that they will never get rid of him.

1. I agree with Ehrhoff, I wouldn't trade him unless some insane offer came through. Aside from Myers, he is our other "untouchable" with Regehr being a close second. 2. Miller CAN be an elite goaltender. It depends on his mood and his determination. But it's besides the point because his attitude is detrimental to the team. Doesn't matter how good he is or how good he can be, he brings the team down. I agree, and have said, when he is on his game he is unstoppable and he goes on hot streaks for weeks at a time. So when he heats up he is by far worth the $$$. But, can that $$$ be better used elsewhere where an elite goaltender doesn't have to be an issue? 3. I haven't looked to see who is on the market. But I think Enroth deserves a chance to play long term. There has to be a few quality veterans on the market who could be a backup or be a 'B' goaltender to Enroth's 'A'. I watched FL all year, they cannot be compared to Tor, Phi or TB. Clemmensen, Theodore and (for a short time and eventual starter Markstrom) looked pretty damn good, They didn't win the division because of them but they certainly didn't lose it. And they pushed NJ to the brink in double OT.

Just wanna get all basis covered. :flirt:

Let's be honest, I've never been a big fan of Miller. But, I have given him credit where credit is deserved. Unlike somebody like Luongo who is inconsistent from game to game, Miller is streaky for months at a time. When he's hot, he's hot for a long time. When he's cold, you can bet he'll be cold for a while. A big part of the dialogue for the last several months has been to get rid of the cancers of the "core". Miller is part of the core. Derek Roy continually get hammered because of his metrosexual party boy lifestyle which many considered to be a detriment to the locker room. Move on to Ryan Miller..... he has never been one to keep his opinions to himself. After every single game the media will ask him for his critique of the game and he won't hesitate to throw his temmates under the bus and until recently he rarely took the blame for a bad game. On the other hand, his teammates NEVER have the nads to criticize Miller for losing a game which leads me to believe that he is favored no matter what happens. He is the golden boy. How can this not be a locker room distraction? The rest of the team seems like they are more concerned about making Miller happy than they are winning a game. So my question is, why is he not chastised about his attitude and his contributions as a "core" player when guys like Vanek, Stafford, Roy and P-Ville are picked on? With a Vezina on his resume and an MVP in the olympics how is he not considered trade bait? He has to be worth something on the market not to mention ridding the team of a huge cap hit. He only has two years left which means a prospective team doesn't have to worry about a Luongo-like contract. And it has been proven that elite goaltenders do not necessarily win a Cup. (I think the Kings would have won without Quick, although it wouldn't have been so easy). Miller for some reason is considered "elite" but in actuality he really isn't. So why all this talk about ridding the team of guys like Stafford, Vanek, P-Ville, (at the time Roy), and Ehrhoff to get an elite center? Why can't Miller be thrown into the equation?

You got screwed! :P

I always thought DR deserved a chance to make a name for himself considering he was working on a leash for years. I think he has done a great job since. I think he deserves at least nother year to see how things play out. He got undeserved criticism for his past transactions. And yes, I was very unimpressed with Leino last year, but I think he can do some damage if he is used properly.

He was part of the #1 shutdown line last year. Look at his +/- compared to his goals scored. Isn't what we've been looking for is heart and determination? I'm not saying he's a $7 million player, but for what he's getting paid why get rid of him? Can you tell me he doesn't add a lot of spark to the lineup?

I have to agree. I have been relatively impressed witb DR since Pegula took over. I think he realizes there is a difference of being a one hit wonder and being a consistent contender. I don't think DR will make the mistake of giving up the future for one shot at a Cup.

Haha, I know you're being sarcastic. But I gotta say I keep hearing Gerbe's name throw around a lot. How can anybody even consider getting rid of Gerbe based on what he brings relative to his contract? Not that including him in a trade would be a decision maker, but we've got nothing to lose by keeping him.

My criticism of Miller stems from his attitude. Vanek isn't a locker room cancer who thinks he is holier than thou. I have praised Miller for his performances and also pointed out that he is statistically average. The weight hasn't been put on his shoulders? Who was left to rely on during most of the 30-40 game stretch when half the team was injured? Who played through the injuries so the team wouldn't be down yet another player? Who is put on the ice during key parts of the game? Vanek has been the go-to guy for a few years now. If he had some secondary support maybe he wouldn't be facing every oppositions #1 defensive lines. When have you ever heard P-Ville calling out a teammate? The only player on this team that has the balls to call anybody out is Miller, the only problem is he goes into a corner and pouts when he doesn't get his way. Anybody remember Miller filing a complaint because an official called him a bad name? Poor baby............ Parise doesn't call out players, neither does Kovalchuk. Hell, Kovalchuk has got to be one of the most one-dimensional players in this league who refuses to do anything besides sit at the line and wait for another chance to score. Vanek takes charge, you can't tell me he hasn't come up big in key situations. And if it means bringing in somebody who can score 40 goals, get into 40 fights, get 200 hits, instigate, is 6'6" 250#, wins 60% of faceoffs AND play goal just like everybody seems to think the Sabres can get a full roster of............ well, good luck with that. Every player in this league has their flaws, your fantasy player doesn't exist. The most successful teams build a roster to offset each players weaknesses and utilizes their strengths. Look at the highest paid forwards in this league, the highest paid forwards are the best scorers. They're not paid to hit, or scold, or fight. And the ones that do hit, scold and fight aren't paid highly because they aren't in high demand.

Incongruous!