nfreeman

Who said anything about the PT? Pommer was on Minny for 5 playoff runs -- 3 1st-round losses and 2 2nd-round losses. That's not a serious SC contender. Regarding Reino: yes, we had differing impressions, but that was on a 1-game sample size. I think that after a full season of (hopefully) #3C under a (hopefully) competent coach, there will be enough data such that our opinions converge, if not all the way.

When? The only time he was on a true SC contender was on the '06 and '07 Sabres. Those teams had: Drury Briere Vanek Connolly Roy Afinogenov Dumont ('06 only) Kotalik Pommer was #12 in scoring in '06 (#7 in the playoffs) and #4 in '07 (also #4 in the playoffs) -- although Max missed 26 games that season with injury and his PPG was well north of Pommer's. So -- it's fair to say that Pommer was well below the #5 forward in '06 -- and that team was a true SC contender -- and #4 or #5 in '07 -- on a substantially weaker team. None of Pommer's Minnesota teams were nearly as much of an SC contender as those Sabres teams were.

I agree that neither Kessel nor Pommer was the type of player who could lift up a team by force of will and dominant play. (I think wingers who can are pretty rare.) And certainly peak Pommer would've been a good player on the Penguins. But current Kessel IMHO still is a much better player in that role than peak Pommer. I don't think Pittsburgh would've considered for a second giving Pommer $5.5MM x 5 years -- but they are happy to give Kessel $8MM. Respectfully, while I agree with some of this post, I disagree with much of it. First, I find the bolded statement revolting and a borderline crime against nature, although in a large enough nation, there is a theory for everyone. More importantly, although you are certainly right that we all bring our individual baggage to our opinion-forming processes, and that winning and losing plays a big role as well, I think that those factors play out on the margins. You don't think Larsson is a #1 or #2 center. I don't think Pysyk belongs in the ECHL. Pi had us all going last year, but he doesn't really think Moulson is a 30-goal guy any more. I also think that while the offseason may be a time for people believing what they want to believe, once the ammo is live, most here evaluate what they see with a respectable degree of fairness.

Respectfully, I think you're weighting point production stats here far too highly. Peak Pommer was a nice player with a well-rounded regular-season game who put up numbers, but he was not dynamic or impactful. The Sabres were pathetic in 07-08. They had just lost Drury and Briere and they carried themselves like Mom had just gotten plastered and run over the dog in the driveway. Pommer put up numbers on a bad team. He wasn't a difference-maker. And he had 1 goal in 5 playoff games in 2011 as the Sabres blew a 3-2 lead to Philly in the 1st round and their entire "top 6," of which Pommer was an integral part, combined for zero goals in the 2nd and 3rd periods of that series. It was one of the most embarrassing Buffalo sports moments of all time. (I think Pommer captained that team -- not sure though.) Meanwhile, Kessel had 8-15-23 in 25 playoff games last year. Out of the guys you mentioned, I think 28 or more NHL GMs would take any of them (except maybe Kesler or Pacioretty) for a playoff run over peak Pommer.

Well, we are pretty far apart on this. I think peak Pommer can't be any better than the 5th or 6th best forward​ (not player) on an SC contender, or at least not one that is built around an elite offense (i.e. if the team is built around Pronger and Niedermayer, then Pommer can probably be the 4th-best forward). And while I recognize that peak Pommer had seasons where he put up numbers, there is always someone to put up numbers on lousy teams. Of course, an SC contender also needs at least 3 defensemen who are more valuable NHL players than peak Pommer. Pommer's game also doesn't translate well in the playoffs, which is borne out by his playoff numbers. As for Pittsburgh, Kessel is in another league compared to peak Pommer IMHO. I'd liken Pommer to Sheary on last year's Penguins -- and I'd argue that Guentzel on that team was better than peak Pommer -- so that puts Pommer in a tie for 5th forward.

I don't follow -- did Reino make it into the top 20 while I was looking away? And you're right that Pommer was a good 2-way player. He just wasn't the kind of player you build a team around -- and I want Reino to be that kind of player.

I agree with both of these, and I really hope that his middle and later years aren't debilitated by his hockey injuries. Connolly's 2005-'06 season remains one of my favorite seasons by any Sabre ever. The redemption story, the surprise, the joy, the 200-foot game, the jaw-dropping moves...he was fantastic. And we'll always have 7-6.

I'm solidly in the "I want more from Reino than slightly better than peak Pommer" camp. Pommer was a nice player, but on an SC contender, he shouldn't be higher than the 5th- or 6th-best forward. Reino needs to be better than that.

Bogo was really flying around last night though. Like a phoenix, rising from Arizona!

Well, this year's forward group being inferior to that of a 300-goal group isn't really an earthshattering revelation. That was a great freaking team. Thanks again, OSP.

I've been skeptical about Reino's game, but I think it's far too early to tell how he'll do at #3C -- and I think the team will be best served if he can center a good 3rd line. So I'd like Howie to keep this going for at least the 1st quarter of the season, although I would be fine with seeing him with other wingers if the current set doesn't produce.

I liked the speed and determination to mix it up that Bailey showed last night. I will be surprised if DLo is ahead of him in the rotation. I agree that there wasn't much chemistry shown on that line. I need to see more from Reino -- I thought he was pretty much invisible.

Who is the world is talking about the ‘85 Bears or the ‘00 Ravens?

And my invitation to you to GFY still stands!

Perhaps you could’ve determined the facts — or inquired about them — before you concluded, and posted, that I was lying.

You could be right, but I don't think he (or anyone else) locked it before Dec. 2. There is zero reference in any of wjag's posts during that period (i.e. between Nov 8 and Dec 2) to locking it, nor was there any day in which there were no posts in that thread.

No -- but thanks for the accusation of lying as a followup to your prior accusation of bad faith. The thread was locked, as I stated above, on Dec. 2 -- and not before. It was then re-opened for 10 days and then closed again, that time for good.

For the record, the election took place on Nov. 8, and the thread was closed on Dec. 2 -- after an additional 53-odd pages filled with hysterical vitriol. And while YMMV, I'd say the horrendousness achieved a sustained peak during that entire period. As always, though, I appreciate the accusations.

What if Reino at C is all that some here think he is? And what if he uses that hockey brain and those nifty passes to unlock Bailey's potential? What if Pouliot reverts to his very solid previous levels of productivity to start the season, and then Nylander returns from injury, seizes the LW spot on Reino's line and makes like prodigal son Jaime Lannister prior to "this'll help you remember?" That would be a highly compelling 3rd line. It could happen.

Definitely. The injury is kind of a bummer though, as it really impairs IMHO his chances of sticking with the Sabres to start the season. He'll need to fully recover, then tear it up in Rochester for a good chunk of the season.

Indeed. IMHO Reino won't have gotten a fair shot at C if he doesn't get anyone better than a washed-up Pouliot or a never-got-there Bailey (although it's far from clear that those are fair descriptions of those 2 guys).

MattPie -- I'm deeply indebted to you for falling on the brie grenade first. I'll say it: I llike brie too (although I prefer the milder ones to the strong ones). It's great on crackers or in a turkey or RB sandwich.

Interesting. Reino appears to be slotted at #3C, as many here have longed for. I'd guess ERod will, when he returns, compete with Bailey for the RW spot on that line. More broadly, I'd guess that all 4 of the bottom-6 winger spots are pretty fluid (while Reino and Larsson are locks), and available to be won by Bailey, Baptiste, ERod, Nylander, Pouliot, Moulson and Josefson, depending on how well/poorly each of them is playing. Nylander seems like the wild card.

And cheeseburgers!

I'm still ticked off about his moving provolone above (heh) White American.