Ghost of Dwight Drane

This was my bad. He sold the company for close to 5, but had to give up 1/4 of the company to get the deal done.

Well, if you are getting 1,000,000 people in traffic, there have to be shops and restaurants next door. If not, why? Also, if you take a 2.5 mile radius from the Amherst Ice Center, look at the amount of people, disposable income, and businesses already established. Now do the same for the proposed $70 million ice rink. You may see why it always isn't a case of "if you build it they will come". Call me maybe?........are you slightly giving in after all this time? :wub:

If the guy was a top of the first round offensive talent, don't you think they would have known who he was prior to 5 months before the draft? That's the point......Grigorenko was talked about being the #1 pick for 2 years. Devine didn't know who Girgensons was in January. Girgensons will be a nice #3 center and you hope he can play a Kesler type of #2 all-around role. By playing him early on a line that sees regular icetime, you aren't going to kill him. He has the attitude, body, and confidence to do so. You have to worry much more about the pure skill guys not getting 10 goals in their first 20 games and being sent down.

Well, then your scouting staff sucks because Devine and Darcy admitted he wasn't even on their radar until the last minute when they saw how hard he competed. If he has legit top of the first round talent.....they certainly missed it for the first 18 years of his life.

You are dealing with a $70 million ice rink that is going to make Buffalo "THE Destination". Why? How? Who's coming? For how long? How do you know? An arena or stadium for a major league franchise is one thing. Using public money for "An Attraction" is another. Ice Rink, Amusement Park, Sports Complex, etc......they all start out with pie in the sky projections, preying on public excitement and hoping that momentum gets the municipality involved. There is a valuation technique used in the small world of nonrated muni bond trading when it comes to this stuff called The Graceland Standard. Graceland was the most successful specialty destination in history. When a new project was presented, or a bond issue was being floated, and projections started approaching or passing what Graceland did, you knew they were full of it. Ok....call us in a year or two when your $10 million waterpark or $26 million icerink is selling at 30 cents on the dollar, and maybe we'll start building a position and then restructure that rink into a $4 million issue and keep the 2nd mortgage and any passing profits tax-free. That's the type of scenario you have setting up here. I have no idea how this will be funded or the amounts....that's the problem right now.....but it is a lot easier finding an end user for $30 million in residential units and office space next to an existing attraction if things go bad than it is for a $70 million icerink. Housing fails as well, but when a specialty unit fails....that's it. And a $20 million loss to the taxpayers is VERY RELEVANT on the HSBC arena. The team couldn't even support those payments. The same team that had been to the Stanley Cup a few years earlier and who was selling out every game. You build this arena and you are trusting the NHL and the Sabres as your attraction partners. Call me not tickled pink. I think Pegula getting involved down there is great.....but for a guy who was going to "build another well" if he wanted to make money.......how about this first round is on Uncle Terry and THEN....let the tax breaks and subsidies flow when he and his group can prove their management skills. If we are only going by the results of the hockey team so far......eeeeeeeh? 3,000 people a day? Wow! Let's set up shop next door then, eh?

A million people? That's the assumption you are making....and $70 million gambled in building that structure on top of what will be included in both proposals minus the residential. The hotel is there either way for hockey fans, business trips, and Canadiens coming down to shop and maybe spend some time near the water. Why would Buffalo become an Ultimate destination because of a hockey rink? Just like putting a casino down there? It would make it easier for the Sabres to host special events, but you are talking a few weeks a year. I'm all for getting Pegula on board and am not against him getting it.....as long as it makes sense. I'm much more ready to accept using the already built arena as the attraction and by adding retail and more hotel space, maybe now you can think about getting a new convention center on the water that would come in handy for the exploding medical corridor. There's room for everyone. Just do it efficiently and with as much outside money as possible.

Did this come out today? The city needs to share specifics and release financial projections as well as how much taxpayers are paying in each. That's the only way to go about it. I don't care if Pegula wants to build down there. I just don't want to be forced to subsidize Hockey Heaven any further. If you want to buy season tickets and give Lieno and Ehrhoff $16 million in cash, that's cool. All I know is that if you collect the taxes on the residential alone, that is worth north of $20 million to the taxpayers coming back on a perpetual basis.

He will max out as a 2nd line center. On talent alone he is probably a 2nd rounder.....it's the way he does it....like a grinder, that got him drafted so high. That's the thing, it wouldn't be a crappy 4th line. You could give them a regular shift and all 3 guys have the potential to score 10-15 goals next year alone. They would be a constant disruptive force and probably draw enough extra penalties where you could justify adding PP goals to their credit. If this team doesn't add Doan, they are in deep doo-doo anyway. In that case feel free to develop kids in the minors. If you have a real team with accountability in the front 6, I see nothing wrong with letting Girginsons play 10-12 minutes next year when surrounded by Doan and Ott in the room to keep him level. You learn the fastest through experience and mimmicking if you have the mental capability. He does.

What....in estimating value of real estate given comparable units nearby, and in other feature projects that are similar elsewhere......multiplied by average real estate taxes that would be recouped? What.....in giving examples of other municipalities that have defaulted on revenue stream projects with only one use, and long term implications of either having to eat the cost of the project, or suffering long term with increased interest rates on their borrowing across the board? What....of showing that Hockey Heaven couldn't even support an NHL team to the point that it could carry the debt load on the arena, and $20 million+ was taken from the taxpayers to forgive debt in order to get Golisano to buy the Sabres? Paladino has laid out his entire plan, so it is much easier to see where revenue streams will come from. In the Pegula plan, taxpayers are directly subsidizing a value-added benefit to his already exisiting enterprise with NO ALTERNATIVE FUTURE USE, and gut the rvenue streams of taxes on residential and office space with the hopes and dreams that hundreds of thousands of hockey moms will bring their children in from out of the area to iceskate, and they will stay for a week and buy Gucci purses. But let's just stick to insulting posters when we have no clue of which we speak.

If you can go into the year with Kaleta-Girgensons-Tropp as your 4th line......there may be some hope yet. It would be a young, energy line and Kaleta is responsible enough defensively to help cover for Girgs growing pains. They could take a regular shift and cause all kinds of headaches as pests who still have the talent to score goals if you chase them around the ice trying to kill them

http://www.green--lightning.com/green_light_page2.html You can navigate to home page at bottom with articles and such. I had family up on Colvin and I was younger, but everyone laughed so hard when we would drive by.

You can give money to Pegula...but let's call it what it is......A practice rink and enhancements to his money making operation under the guise of "Yeah! Hockey Rink for the people!" Show me numbers......show me how this is going to benefit the community and the taxpayers. Why do you need 2,000 seats for some kiddies coming down for a 2 day tourney? I've shown you estimated numbers and reasons why Paladino's proposal makes more sense......show me with concrete examples how Pegula deserves extra money from tax payers leaving him with no incentive to sell residential units that are tied to retail space? If Paladino fails.....he is F'd. If Pegula fails.....he has free ice rinks, parking spaces, and ramps to add to his Sabres revenue stream. The taxpayers already ate Tens of millions when debt was forgiven and Golisano bought the team. And that was for an actual Hockey Heaven NHL Team Arena. Now we are dealing with add-ons and pie in the sky hopes that thousands will nring their children downtown to iceskate each day. There are plenty of other ways for Pegula to get involved downtown without adding a burden to taxpayers in such a great amount. I am not opposed to him getting the site, in fact if he gets it there is a better chance of completion. I want to see HARDCORE projections......and there is no way I would give him more money than the other project. If the Sabres were smart, they would concentrate on a smaller project in Amherst. Partner with UB, get a practice rink minutes away from where most of the Sabres live, add hotel and conference space and do it on free land, saving the state, county, and city money and adding an asset that could grow the school in term of sports and recognition. Then everyone wins in this.

So you want the taxpayers to front more money to a guy worth $5 billion to build his team a practice rink? UB has land out the wazzoo up in Amherst. You can build a rink there for pennies and have all your Amherst/Williamsville/N.Buff Soccer/Hockey moms right around the corner if you need more precious ice time. Dozens of public funded sports facilities fail....with the same gradiose hopes as this one. Minnesota just built a rink for $26 million and they are ready to default a little more than a year later. In the past I have seen rinks and complexes get restructured at pennies on the dollar and the municipalities taking a hit in credit rating when they don't step up and make bondholders whole. If they don't float bonds....it's tens of millions out of taxpayers' pockets......if they do issue them and something goes bad, not only are you on the hook for tens of millions, but imagine your borrowing costs go up 1/2% on everything you issue because of a failure. That could cost the city/county $5 million a year going forward. At least in Paladino's proposal, you have $30-$50MM worth of condos you can tax at $1.5 million a year. You still have the retail and the hotel as revenue options. He isn't asking for extra money to build a bridge to the arena and extra parking spaces for a direct revenue source to an existing means of income. His group would be on the hook to get deals done. Like I said upthread......I wouldn't be surprised to learn Pegula gets this thing no matter what and Paladino is just waiting for the right reason to "go away".

Dude.....Green Lightning......turn in your Buffalo Man-card!

Oooooooof........ :bag:

That's the thing....the links don't work so I can't see projected tax income or ROI on any projects.....but by the sounds of it, Paladino's is much better for the city. You want people in those spaces 24/7 who will eat and shop in the city. You want the tax rolls of people spending 300K-1MM on condos. You want to put the retail space on the hook by having residential units.....because the untits get killed in value if the retail fails and vice-versa. I don't want to pay tens of millions to subsidize a billionaire so some kids can enjoy their hobby and open skate. Plenty of other places to put a rink, but not many landmarks where you can fetch that kind of money on condos in the area. I wouldn't pay to rent a loft downtown....and I wouldn't pay a 50% premium to be on a waterfront, freezing my ass off 8 months a year, but if I already worked there, I would think about buying a condo with food and shops below me and 41 Sabres games a 100 foot walk away from me while a few blocks from the theatre district...instead of driving in from Amherst/etc. like many do. The city/county/state is already caput. I can get you bonds for 5 cents on the dollar of other ice rinks that have failed. Either way.....it's the blind leading the "I didn't see nuthin'" leading the Hockey Heaven brigade. It would be nice if some outside forces could see value here.

How much tax money will each bring in then?

;) :thumbsup:

Relax! The suggestion was the same as if Richard Park was a prized free agent and the first thing they did was take him out for Chineese food. I will pray to St. Anthony that you find your lost composure.

In this case he is actually right though, not saying in general. You want to blow the deal up before you even get started, confuse Christian with Catholic, then go show a guy who believes in "walking the walk", an ornate Catholic church 10 minutes after landing, and before you know it Mancari is taking his roster spot.

I'm 99% sure he isn't catholic. Let's not make him run. It's an easy sell job if you have someone who understands him doing the touring with him. I don't start at the arena.......you go from Prior and head straight for the 400 down to East Aurora. You cruise around a few available farms, point out Knox farm and the old polo grounds and throw in some team history. Head over to Main St. and grab a bite to eat at a calm place......then, I take him into Viddlers. Then you head up to Clarence through the country roads and show him where most of the guys live....avoid Transit and the traffic. Now the only thing he has seen so far is quaint, horse country and old school living. Then you can backtrack and take him to the arena and show him around. If it gets serious and he is here an extra day.....go from the arena to the Anchor Bar if he wants, he'd get a kick out of that probably. Then you could cut over to Porter and hop on the Peace Bridge and just go up the Canadian side of the river to the Falls so he can see the houses there as well. When you are making $7.5 a year, nothing stopping you from having a working ranch and a summer place on the river or lake in your home country, 20 minutes away. The key is........don't put a fake weenie on this. Have an honest down to earth person doing it. I'm more convinced that he will like living here than I am he would want to play for the actual team.

If I was president of my own country......this would be my flag.

I'm just laughing at the setup. Quinn is partners with Paladino on many projects. Quinn hired 90% of the people working inside of the arena who are putting the proposal together with the Sabres. The city is the city and wouldn't close an open window in the middle of January if they found it. All those expecting a 100% perfectly legit and efficient process....please raise your hands.

I'm sorry...I wasn't countering your point.....just giving a real world example. You INSTINCTS are to jump the guy.....just like instincts should have been for 5 guys to pile on Lucic. That's why it was so sad.....total exposure.....a leaguewide laughingstock.....and justification for those of us who have said all along the team was fragile and had no shot. Sadly it took an event like this and total fallout for the people getting paid millions to put the team together to understand this.

A guy walks into a bar and grabs your girlfriends boobies right in front of you. Your instincts SHOULD be to pound the daylights out of him. The civil thing might be to call the cops and sit around......but then your girlfriend will see you for the wuss you are and always doubt you in the back of her mind. Everyone else will be asking what is wrong with you as well. Just the other day in women's soccer, Amy Wambauch took an elbow to the eye. 30 seconds later she was "playing the ball", and threw a hip check at the locked knee of her rival. Good for her. Dirty deserves an immediate and in-kind response on the playing field. Not because you want to...but because you have to.